It should be no surprise to anyone that visits the 40k blog-o-sphere that Stelek believes that Orks are far from competitive. Below is a list of reasons why he has these views...
I'll give my 2 cents on the issues I have with the Ork Codex, and we'll see if I covered everything:
1) No melta weapons to knock out tanks.
2) No S9 weapons to knock out tanks.
3) BS is exceedingly low, and even 'good shots' only hit 50% of the time.
4) The Trukk. When you build a vehicle that is worse by far than any other vehicle in the game, you've really hit a high note. What's wrong with the Trukk? It's open-topped, leaves no wreck when destroyed, does random 'ha ha funny' things when blown up, has AV10, BS2, a single non-linked weapon, and upgrades that can make the vehicle cost 2x it's normal value--and it still sucks!
5) Mono-build. Let's see now. You bring a Big Mek with a Kustom Force Field, or two. Maybe you bring a Warboss to give yourself a semi-reliable troop unit.
6) With the exception of Lootas, Warbuggies, Deff Koptas, Kans, and Kannons...there is nothing remotely reliable in the Ork army for killing tanks or MC's at range.
7) Forced to CC. When you can deliver a whole mess of attacks, but hit like a girl and take hits like a girl, people aren't afraid of you. They line themselves up out in the open, and trade you units. Given it usually takes 2-3 Ork Trukk units to destroy one solid defender, you have serious issues.
8) Dependence on cover. Hey, everyone has flamers. And Orks don't get move through cover. Ass.
9) Fearless. If you decide to bring a big unit of Troop Orks along, anyone that can out CC you (so, that's EVERY dedicated CC unit in the entire game) will annihilate you in short order. Worse, because you are so ungainly--it's possible to pull off multi-charges and instead of crippling one Ork unit--you can easily destroy two Ork units.
10) Special characters that suck. Yes, you have the majority of them. Even decade old Grey Knight and Dark Eldar special characters look better and perform better than yours do.
11) Troops have a stupid 10 to 1 ratio for special weapons, because obviously the way EVERYONE ran their army before...with 3 weapons, a Nob, and 6 bullet catchers...was far too powerful.
12) When your old Codex is FAR more competitive than your new Codex, you should seriously ask GW what the hell happened. Besides wasting designer time on War of the Rings and Apocalypse, that is. Chaos, Eldar, and the Orks all thank you for these excellent games nobody plays. Just how are those sales doing, GW? Up in the UK, down dramatically everywhere else? That's not a good thing, fyi.
13) Lack of survivability. Orks in Trukks can run forward and annoy people while in cover, but they can't actually survive if people focus on getting them out of it. Sure sure, you can go to ground and get a 3+ cover save against my Bolters, making you statistically as awesome as Marines. Which everyone can kill. But I digress. So what happens when the tactical squads charge into you in support of their Thunder Shield terminators instead of shooting at you? Oh yeah, you lose all of your Orks.
14) Back to the mono-build thing...virtually all Ork armies end up looking the same, because the Codex has clear 'this is better than anything else' units within it. Lootas, Nobs, Warbuggies, Kans...toss in some Trukks and KFF to try and annoy the enemy to death, and there you go--the build itself isn't terrible, but when every Ork army builds the same, plays the same, well...everyone knows how to beat it. You can be fucking awesome with them, and scrub01 will still kick your ass with a better Codex and a lower amount of skill, because Orks cannot surprise anyone. Just like Necrons, Chaos Demons, Chaos Space Marines, Vampire Counts, Warriors of Chaos, and soon--Eldar. The latter at least have a sharp blade, where everyone else is bringing their butter knife to the gunfight and wondering what happened. Eldar can still shiv you, but without a Codex refresh or a complete and utter change back to 4th edition rules--their days are numbered.
15) Lack of Terminators. Meganobs are pathetic. Even when you waste a HQ on boosting them with Mad Dok (who costs you a Nob unit as a troop, and usually the game) they still get their asses stomped because hey guess what? 5+ invulnerable saves on go-last terminator units is seriously shitty.
16) In short, Orks suck because they can't reliably kill mech. They have 6+ saves, and heavy flamers kill ALL of them. Every single unit, dead. Meltaguns get delivered, and your vehicles, shoddy as they are, get blown to bits. That Battlewagon kit is a nightmare--you can't cover it, you can't stop side shots, and it's a big piece of shit until it RAMS you. Hey, isn't that clearly listed as a last-gasp tactic in the rulebook? Ah, that's the primary tactic. Right, here's the shelf you lot of green shitbags. Have fun watching my real armies get played, because you suck ass.
17) Did I mention Ork fearless rule is horrible, and is the easiest way to destroy Orks? Followed closely by their non-fearless LD7? When CC armies (I'm looking at you, Blood Angels) can wipe out your whole fucking army in the time it takes to get to you...well, your CC army probably sucks big cow balls.
That's my Truth of the Day.
- Stelek in Editorial: Why Orks Suck
Click on the link to read the discussion. There is some pro-Ork arguements scattered through out. The one by Nashdiesel will get it's own post. And below is Von's post in reply to Stelek...
I don't really have much to add, to be honest, other than a general observation that the poor old Orks suffer for the same reason that the much-maligned Vampire Counts and Warriors of Chaos suffer: lousy threat projection that is why Von is being quoted, and a design paradigm that's an edition out of date. The Ork Codex, with its bucket of AP3 blast templates and cheap-ish krak missiles and what have you, does indeed come from that same mill as the Chaos Space Marines, influenced by endless boring conversations about "handling MEQ" as the Secret of the Game.
It's the kind of Codex that forced a drift away from things that those AP3 guns could kill and into the land of 2+/Inv saves as the goal and transport vehicles for anything that couldn't get them - a drift which rendered the Codices responsible either boring and limited or virtually obsolete. It also priced me out of 40K (I'd have effectively had to replace my basic-Marine-oriented no-Cult-troops Chaos army, only it'd have cost me twice as much because everything needed a transport vehicle now), and that's why I can't quite bring myself to pat GW on the back for a sensible business strategy. The target market for fifth edition is clearly someone wealthier than I... but I'm going off topic now, and rants about GW's pricing are always slightly dubious anyway.
- Von
Bear in mind, if you will, that I've done a bit of thinking and a lot of learning in the last five months, and while I stand by what I said there, I'm willing to be proven wrong if that's what you're about to do here.
ReplyDeleteIn particular, at the time of posting I wasn't aware of what the newer Imperial Codices could do to the Force Organisation chart (expanding slots to fit in multiple squads as well as transports and thus extending their flexibility in movement and fire control). I think that's a much bigger weakness of the Ork Codex than BS2, average-at-best weapon ranges and trouble handling AVs above 12 from a safe distance.
If you're quoting me because you agree with me, on the other hand, of course I'm right and things couldn't possible be otherwise. ;) Ho hum.
Also, despite my misgivings, I'd play the Orks again like a shot, tactical limitations or not, because whatever else they are or aren't, they're fun.
It isn't that I'm agreeing with you, or even disagreeing. Rather what you said hit on something that alot of different people on the interwebz have mentioned.
ReplyDeleteI'm trying to sit on the fence as much as possible when it comes to Orks... although I find the "Orks Suck" arguments to be more logical.
Messanger
Cool cool. My Drama-dar was pinging, that's all, and I wanted to nail down my position before my paranoia could be justified. I don't always manage to say what I mean when I'm commenting at Early o'clock before work, either, so that was a worry.
ReplyDelete