While exploring the blog-o-sphere I came across this post on BoLS. Typical quality of work expected from those guys. Says the guy who has almost nothing original on his blog. Giving up after reading the first sentence the exploration of the blog-o-sphere continued. This resulted in the discovery below...
I'm going to do a snowmobile! iamaddj over at BoLS wrote an 'editorial' on TLoS and how it's killing the games we love. Whilst he tried to make the article humorous whilst also looking at the topic in-depth...well let's see for yourself. My comments will be in blue changed to pink because apparently pink scares you people. The full article (with pictures) can be seen here.
Lately a new menace has begun to threaten the games we know and love so much. Oh, 5th edition is new? What's this new threat you ask? FORUMS! Well its greater than the religious nuts not possible how rude or the rising price of metals and there's a big hint in the title about it, so read on for more.
True line of sight is the new big thing. I can't wait for "TLoS is the new black" Both 40k and Warhammer Fantasy have in their most recent additions moved to this system and it seems to be the new up and coming thing. It's the new black afterall How old is 5th Edition? It is a very simple concept at heart. You've hit on something here...you should of run with this. Basically, if the model can "see" what is trying to see, then it can in fact see it. Simple, easy, effective, realistic, at least at first glance. Bingo until your after-thought! True line of sight has begun to replace more abstracted systems that GW and other games systems used in the past. Again, you've hit on something here, you should of run with this. Gone are rules like size categories and only being able to see through 6 inches of woods. Now what you see is what you see, its simple. But its killing our games, it is overall one of the worse things to happen to wargaming, ever. No no, it's forums good man!
Why True Line of Sight In the First Place?
Legend (or possible a White Dwarf article?) has it that one day some of the design big wigs, walked in a game store. While they where going around watching some of the games being played they saw something they couldn't stand. They some guy trying to shoot at his friends Land Raider. I assumed what happened afterwards was this: What does assuming to do us again?
"Ah ha!" the designer thought to himself "He's got him now, that Land Raider will never survive being shot at by a missile launcher!" terrible example btw. What game designed would think a LR wouldn't survive a ML? Seriously? Even in 4th ed.
He was however surprised when the owner of the Land Raider calmly stated "I'm sorry my good man, but you just can not do that at all. You see my Land Raider is behind these woods hear, and according to the by-laws of our game that means you cannot see me."
Our startled designer looked down and saw that between the dreaded missile launcher and the doomed Land Raider was a base, WITH ONLY A SINGLE TREE ON IT, This is key to this guy's argument meant to represent a whole forest. Aghast at this turn of events he swore to himself that he would fix this glaring problem in the next edition. Wait, what problem? You mean the problem of a bunch of extra rules, hiding huge tanks being easy, taking 10 minutes to decide what models could shoot, which models could die, which models had a cover save and then rolling this all? Oh no, you mean your imaginative abstraction of what a game designer thought was the problem with terrain...
So in short we have true LoS because the powers that be got tired of people playing with bad terrain and wanted to force players, and stores, to get better terrain. That was their intent? Are you sure? Not to make the game easier to play? Like, 5 models can shoot, you get cover. Compare to the above. Terrain that was accurate and really represented the battlefields. On top of all this true LoS was seen as a simpler way of doing LoS and required less thinking than an abstracted system. I'm pretty sure this was the main reason. Look at their army releases. Streamlined, easier, quicker. Remember, people aren't all of average intelligence nor is GW really out to get us and make us pissy and stop buying their product as much as the majority of the internet would like to think (looking after my bottom line right Dethtron :P?). Finally they wanted to make the game more "cinematic" and thought it would be cool for guys to shot through units, gaps, windows and whatever. How is this cinematic? All of this sounded like a good idea, but in the end it back fired. Actually, 5th edition is great. Didn't you get the newsletter? Did he even get a brain?
Whats so bad about true LoS anyway?
First off, true LoS causes the most arguments of any rule in the rule book, period. I've never had an argument with TLoS and I've never seen an argument about it. Cover or not, yes. Can you see or not, no. This is not just a problem for tournament players, in comes up in friendly pick up games just as much as in major events. Idiot playing against Asshats. In fact I would say that about 80% of all games of 40k or WFB 8th, have at least one LoS argument. I must account for 20% of all games then. Don't we love egoistic comments. Where's that silly stats 'quote' about 90% of statistics being made up... I'm sure many of you have seen this happen, or even had it happen to you. Nope. In an abstract system it's easy to make sure things are hidden, Hey maybe GW didn't want this! Those pesky Land Raiders should be in the open and waving to their opponent. Rather than "forcing" you to get "awesome terrain." There is also a lot more room for arguing about an 'abstract' system unless the rulebook accounts for EVERY possible scenario. Here you just get down and look, which is easier? or that you can't see through some random window or under a tank. But in true LoS it's possible for all of that to happen. Players constantly argue over whether or not they can see a target. No they don't. They constantly argue over cover or not. How hard is it, bend over (*giggle*), look, see or not? Continue.
Another strike against true LoS is that it is a pain for modeling. No it's not. You want to model for advantage or not model for disadvantage, go for it but I thought BoLS was all about warm and cuddly 40k? Balancing between competitive and hobby is delicate and if you want awesome display bases, etc. then you're less likely to get cover or be able to hide, etc. Who gives a flying tahooney? If it were all of my models, than ya that'd be a PITA but can't say I've seen a full-scale Marine list on the table. In an abstract system models can do pretty much what ever they want with their model and its cool. Mine are invisible, is this cool? Sure but mine are Chuck Norris.Want to make a super tall Dreadnought? That's cool all walkers are size x anyway. But don't worry it can see over hills cause it's so tall but we can use our imagination which apparently this guy thinks GW doesn't think we have... Want to model all your guardsmen as kneeling, or only show their heads sticking our of a swampy base? Then I'd have the pieces for my headless Zombie army! Genius That's awesome, all infantry is size x, so it doesn't matter. But it true LoS all of these are actually problems. Your super cool tall Dreadnought? Well it's going to be seen by everything. Get to see everything, too. Your kneeling guardswomen? Well that's kinda cheating since it makes them a lot easier to hide. As an example of this in the Marcharian Crusade Campaign we put on a while back I played the Barac Pioneers. The special character for the Pioneers was supposed to have some kind of floating throne, so I modeled him on a giant floating command throne. Unfortunately this made him taller them a Lemon Russ Battle Tank, due to the flying base I put him on. Now my mediocre Guard character can be seen over a giant tank, very annoying. Solution: use Vendettas lol, finally they give cover to something! Your little character dude also gets to see most things clearly, etc. This is the exact same 'issue' with large flying models, etc.
True LoS insults our imagination
True LoS, is simply put, an insult. Don't get me started on what's insulting. Remember how all this started, that whole one tree on a base is a forest thing? Objection! Hear-say. (can I get a lawyer degree to go with my Psych one now?). Well see those players were using their imagination to fill in that base with a full woods. But according to the rules makers that's no good, we can't do that, we can't actually imagine those things, everything has to be exactly as it looks, or else it won't work. Could I imagine a argument which makes sense from you? But this is only with terrain. Gamers are really good at imagining things. For instance we can imagine that this: some fancy pictures. Of course, the game designers couldn't of made 40k/fantasy easier to play by making the system very much "I can shoot or I can't" compared to the knowing model sizes, terrain sizes, terrain rules and figuring out which individual models can be shot, can shoot and what gets cover, etc. No, that would be sensible!
True LoS is actually less realistic for a game of toy soldiers?
Part of the attraction to true LoS, is that it is supposedly more realistic, or maybe because it makes the game move faster after all if your model can see it then it would be able to see it in real life right? Well not really. See our model battlefields you mean tabletops are supposed to be abstract representations of a real battlefield, not perfect copies. A lot of things that real battlefields have are lacking from the table top. No. Way. Way. For instance the average gaming table might have raised portions to represent hills and the like, but they only rarely can have depressed portions. Real battlefields have dips and gullies and all kinds of places to hide that the table top doesn't. It's like we are playing a game or some such nonsense.
It gets even worse when you start talking about lighting and smoke and dust. Table tops are generally well lit and free of smoke and dust, unless you play in a cigar club (which could explain a lot). How dare you insinuate such things! Battlefields are not. the philosophy behind true LoS seems to think a battle looks like this: more pretty pictures
Notice how there is a lot of smoke that makes it hard to see things? No, there's smoke obscuring my vision. Yeah that happen in a battle. Abstract terrain can sort of simulate this effect, that's why for instance you wouldn't be able to shot through woods, they are smokey and fully of shadows and hard to see through. Not when there's only ONE TREE. True LoS ignore this. The previous systems did this how? You want to know what's really funny, 4th edition was king for gunlines yet you could hide your models easier. Ya, ironic much. True LoS also lets your models do stupid things they wouldn't actually do. Now some of you army types out there might correct me, but as far as I know shooting through open doors in your own tanks is not actually a tactic that people use regularly in real life. But this is actually something that true LoS allows, shooting through drop pods is a very common thing. I have even seen a guy depoly his troops out of a Rhino, open the doors so he could shoot through and then close them so he couldn't be shot back out. Luckily he got what he deserved for that. A kick in the fucking nuts? Pardon my French. Let's go back to how you try and talk about modeling for advantage. Ding-ding, we have a winner! Last time I checked modern armies do not have orbital Drop Pods either but if I could see the bloody enemy through something, I'd bloody well shoot! (unless it was my buddies I was shooting through...)
Let's be clear here, TLoS represents an 'unfolding' battlefield. We know we are playing a game (well you do now!) and that a turn-based system can only depict a real battlefield so much. (omg baby hippo on TV. this needs a pic). Er sorry, side-tracked. Anyway, infantry and tanks are constantly on the move and whilst I'm sure there are case when you couldn't see the whole squad/tank/etc in real-life, this is a game and attempts to be as easy and fun as possible to play. Remember 2nd ed with a billion rules? 3rd became even more streamlined yet between 3rd and 4th there were cover saves for this model, these models couldn't even hit but this one could, you can't see through this terrain or this terrain gives me this, etc. etc. Streamlining is the point of TLoS, not some super secret conspiracy to make you have awesome terrain. The exact same as combat rules. Everyone can die and combats are quick messy affairs. IT MAKES THE GAME FASTER AND EASIER TO LEARN. Good things for business as more people are willing to get into it.
So that's just a few reasons why true LoS is killing our games. I could go about other reasons, about how it hasn't made us get better terrain, just made the terrain we have useless. Operating under the assumption of: there must be lots of LoS blocking terrain is a fallacy. Your terrain is perfectly fine, you generally just get a cover save instead. Also it's not that hard to make cheap and easy terrain which blocks LoS more. About how it is costing major tournaments, a bunch of money to replace their old non-true LoS friendly terrain. About how it makes the game harder to get into because you can't just throw down some book for hills and felt cutouts for forest any more. Yes you can. Less rules and easier to understand/grasp rules = good for the game because it's EASIER to get into. I just read the Fantasy rulebook for the first time ever, that's a ton of information to take in and that discourages new players. Imagine a bunch more rules to cover all of your 'abstract' system. Turn off for newbies. I could go on about a ton of reasons, but I won't, not this time. Cause you can't think of any? Please don't encourage him to write more. Pretty please. See remember we gamers can't imagine things well or reason and I really don't want to cause anyone any pain from trying to think to hard or anything. I'm going to be cliche. Emphasis on trying. Oh wait, he was trying to be funny.
Maybe I'm just over reacting to a trend I see, maybe I'm the only one who see a lot of arguments, maybe, heck almost certainly, I'm totally crazy. Or you're imagining it. You should get help... nevermind. Delusions and hallucinations are serious problems. As a health care professional you should take his issues more serious Kirby. But as far as I am concerned True LoS is a needless and harmful addition to wargaming. It only makes the game easier to play but you're right, it sucks. It's a greater threat to our continued enjoyment of the games than a wife and kids or even the Leafblower. Spouse/kids threaten the enjoyment of our game how? My missus hates 40k but that doesn't mean I can't enjoy it and she knows I need my own activities just like she has hers and I know countless individuals who play games with their kids. Mine is looking forward to when Dark Eldar get a new miniatures and she wants to collect a Slaanesh army. Yeah be jealous. Some nonsense called bonding or something (not bondage you sick freaks!). Oh and Leafblower affects my enjoyment because it's not a top IG list, yawn. Now all we need is Horde Orks for this post to reach rock bottom. I know a lot of gaming groups have already begun to house rule things to help with some of the problems, such as not being able to see through forest and the like. But these are only temporary and not very good, fixes. At the end of the day I see a problem, but don't have a solution's yet, maybe you guys can help? Go play a different game and stop complaining. People have way too many hold-overs from previous editions. You have to adapt because you can't hide your Land Raider anymore. Boohoo. The game is much faster and easier to play and whilst some terrain has to be changed, when you play with your friends USE YOUR DAMNED IMAGINATION. He doesn't have one because he lost his brain. When you play at stores/tournaments, they have the resources and nous to actually build those bigger pieces of terrain but then I bet you want those LoS blocking pieces right in the middle don't you? L2play and get over 4th edition.
These are the type of articles I really dislike from BoLS. Worse than the complaining about leafblower, worse than the meh tactics articles, etc. but the articles that try and understand the state of the game by putting down opinions and not really contributing anything to the game. The stupid "meta" articles and analysis of 40k is just...well wrong and more whiny than analysis. It's part of the game, even if it does suck, deal with it or quit. If you want to propose a new system or some ideas about how you think your perceived problem can be fixed, better. I may disagree with you and argue with your ideas but at least you're trying to "help" the community rather than whining. Opinions are like ass holes part of life but how you go about expressing them says a lot about you.
- Kirby in True Line of Sight: The real take
A snowmobile within a snowmobile, ambitious.
ReplyDeleteWe need to go deeper. 3 levels of snowmobile.
Uh did you see Dethtron's post with him, Brent, Lauby and me? I mean seriously, that was so much fun to write =D.
ReplyDeleteI am tempted to go hunting on the interwebz. Compile all the jokes and the such of the BoLS article... wait and see.
ReplyDeleteMessanger