This is an interesting read by Stelek...
I had this article pointed out to me.
Ork Boyz are not crap per se. Their Codex is when you consider all things.
- Their heavy hitter units are elites.
- Their shooty units are elites.
- Changing #1 to not be elites requires 150-200 points per Warboss, for the right to do it once.
- Consider the mech rules--the Ork Trukk is a horrible piece of shit currently, the absolute worst vehicle in the entire game. You claim diffeerently? I call you on your bluff then. It's a pair of deuces. You might win with them, but you should definitely not go around telling everyone you beat a veteran with Trukks and that makes them 'good'. The battlewagon is also not very good, because the model combines with the rules to make it's actual AV in midfield AV12. Everyone can pop that. Having a 4+ cover save is nice, getting shot with 3-4 meltas a turn into that side armor means you will be rideless very soon. Heavy bolters will take trukks down, whether you have that cover save or not. If you don't know this yet, you damn well should by now.
- The ork fast attack choices cost like land speeders, but perform way way worse. The Ork heavy choices cost like mini-land raiders, but are nowhere near as good. When you have to take Kans and hope that they hold up with a KFF around, doesn't that invalidate #3? Sorry, did you think I did not know this or something?
- Ork troops COULD be fine as is, IF they had decent supporting units. As it is, they really don't have enough. Kans, Battlewagons, Nobs, Lootas. I'm sorry, do you run other units? Then your already marginal list is even shittier than the builds that vary those units around.
- You can pretend Orks are good, but I'm not going to pretend. Ork Boys are fine if you are only considering them in their own little bucket, without considering the rules or the rest of the Codex. Then their awesomeness goes down considerably, to mediocrity...
...At no point should one consider Orks a good list because the entire army is too focused on one single build with little variation. That means everyone has your number, because they've punched that ticket before and aren't shocked when you show up with the same army everyone else has.
Even netdeck idiots will beat you, because learning to beat an army that's so one faceted is not hard.
That's why Ork Boyz are fail, because the Ork Codex is fail.
Written in 4th edition instead of 5th, without concern for the future of the Ork playerbase--well, you can think it's all well and good...
- Stelek in Ork Boyz
As usual read the discussion for some more depth. And I still reakon Ork Boyz are crappy units. They are not awesome in close combat due to being Fearless and having a 6+ armour save. They either go small and ride in a crappy transport. Or go big and walk across the board with a
Tank Shock me sign. They offer very little when it comes to anti-tank. You get the Power Klaw and the Ork version of missile launchers (BS 2 is fail). These alone do not make Ork Boyz the crappy units we see them for. They really shine as crappy units when you include all of the problems the Ork Codex has... infighting for FOC, really shyt Ballistic Skill, even shyter transport and an over-reliance on Power Klaws to kill high AV targets.
Already replied to Bro Lo's article; but again; tank shock is not the end all-be all to dealing with big mobz. Big mobz with 3 rokkits hit with a S8 shot more reliably than a tactical marine with a krak missile (yes, you have a lower effective range, but you can move and fire). For Anti-Tank they have Lootas and Killa Kans with Rokkits as well as rokkits in Mobz. And then they have Nobz with Power Klaws. The Trukk is just fine since it does exactly what it needs to do (move up units to assault and be cheap), with a KFF its more survivable than a Rhino and moves father on turn one (unless you are BA). High AV units aren't that big of a deal unless they are Land Raiders or Monoliths, and neither of those does enough damage for me to worry about them too much even if they are alive.
ReplyDeleteAre Orks as good as Space Wolves/Imperial Guard/Blood Angels? No. Are they as good as Space Marines and any other mid tier army you can think of? Yes.
The key to playing Orks is being mindful of what you can and cannot do and also not playing like an Ork.
Thanks for your reply Nathan. As for your points:
ReplyDelete1. No one is saying that Tank Shocking is the greatest way to grind big mobz into dust... rather it is another fun way to do it.
2. How are you figuring out that three BS2 shots are better than one BS4 shot? Are you taking into consideration diminishing returns which Sepharine talks about here - http://kirbysblog-ic.blogspot.com/2010/08/guest-article-mathammer-in-warhammer.html
2.a. I don't understand why you are pointing out that 3 boyz with rokkits are better than one Space Marine with a missile launcher. As missile launchers are far more common in squads of Devastators, Sternguard or Long Fangs.
3. Orks have lots of dakka (and power klaws)... we just differ in opinions as to how effective that dakka is at taking out vehicles reliably.
4. Trukks may be fast but they are weak and not cheap. Compared to the 5th Edition Rhinos they are over priced at 40 points...
4.a. Although an upgraded Trukk shares the same armour value as a Chimera they are very different beasts.
5. KFF are more than just good. They are great. And I won't disagree with you that they increase the survivability of Trukks. But what happens when players realise that taking the KFF out on turn one isn't impossible?
6. I'm not a fan of ranking codices. Each has the ability to build a competitive all-comers lists... except Necrons lolz. And the skill level of the general is more important than the strength of the list.
Messanger
Gah! Had a whole big response and then botched the send. Let me try again...
ReplyDelete1. I think it happens to be grossly ineffective. Requiring several units to do minimal damage to a cheap unit and putting all of those units in danger.
2. A single shot hitting 66.6% of the time should get 4 hits through 6 turns whereas 3 hitting at 33.3% of the time should get 6 hits. Perhaps comparing them to Multimeltas would be better?
3. I think that what makes Ork anti-tank shooting so effective is that it relies on large numbers of dice rolls which negates a lot of the vagaries of dice distribution. I think volume of fire is a tactic that should always be imbraced. This is what makes Lootas good. Also, ork anti-tank shooting is usually highly rugged if properly deployed in cover. Winning a SHOOTING match with Orks that are designed to shoot (like my Orks) is tough because at THAT point, fearless is a HUGE asset for Orks.
4. I disagree since Trukks have a different mission than Rhinos. They are an assault unit deliver system, not a mobile bunker. Also, with a KFF, they are pretty rugged compared to a Rhino.
Chance to immo/destroy a
Rhino with...
S4: 0%
S5: 2.7%
S6: 11%
S7: 19.3%
S8: 27.7%
S9: 36%
s10: 44.3%
Trukk with KFF...
S4: 2.7%
S5: 8.2%
S6: 13.8%
S7: 19.3%
S8: 24.9%
S9: 30.5%
s10: 33.3%
Notice how at S7 they are equivalent, then the Trukk becomes more survivable? And even the lower Strengths are only an increase of 2.7%, 5.5%, and 2.8%; not a huge difference.
Obviously, you can get cover for rhinos as well, so it changes things, but trukks should ALWAYS be in KFF range.
Also, I'm not sure how Stelek comes up with no wreckage, as I mentioned before.
5. Yes, KFF is excellent, but taking out a KFF on turn on is NOT easy for any army. Unless the BW moved up in turn one, you're PROBABLY looking at shooting the front armor of the vehicle. Heck, even side armor 12 with KFF is hard to pop.
6. Yes, we agree, everything but Necrons (though I'd add Grey Knights).
No one likes it when they loss a reply to the warp.
ReplyDelete1. Two rhinos and the 5 man squads with flamers inside are not that expensive. The Ork Boyz are just as (if not) cheaper. But being able to hit the packed in boyz with flamers is something that can be very useful.
2. Diminishing returns means the odds are actually less than that... of course I think the same way with 33% + 33% + 33% = a hit.
2.a Also your comparing green apples with blueberries. You have to buy 30 Orks in order to get the 3 rokkits which means no transport for them. While a Space Marine player can get MM, Flamer, combi-weapon and a Rhino. Being a Black Templar player I can get a MM, Flamer and Rhino for under 150 points. It gets very hard to compare green apples, blueberries and blackberries because there are so many variables to consider.
3. Lots of dakka is necessary for a balanced all-comer Ork lists. It is something that you, Stelek and rest of competitive blog-o-sphere agree on. We probably like the same units for similar reasons.
3.a We just differ on effectiveness of Orks because of the unreliability of Lootas with their D3 and the BS of 2 across the army. Your long range shooting is also limited to only being able to take out 3-4 units on turn 1... not good at 2000 points when IG and SM can bring 10+ vehicles.
4. For 35 points they are over-priced for the role of delivering 12 Orks into the enemy. At 40 points they become easier to swallow with their improved survivability and the secondary ability to ram. But your paying for things that the Rhino and Chimera already get.
4.a Stelek doesn't believe that every hit results in no crater. It is only the explosion that results in no crater... which happens more often on the Ork Vehicle Damage Chart.
4.b With the prevalence of autocannons and missile launchers to take out light vehicles it doesn't really matter. The S9 and 10 weapons would be focusing on the Battle Wagons or Biker Nobz... if your opponent is wasting his lascannons and pie plates on Trukks then he deserves to get stomped.
4.c The odds of a Rhino surviving improve when they get a cover save which isn't hard in 5th Edition especially with all the other vehicles on the board.
5. I never said it was easy. I said it was possible. Both Tau and Imperial Guard have the necessary tools to take out the Battle Wagon. Some Space Marine lists also bring the tools to do it on turn one.
6. Pure Grey Knights are possibly the worst build ever. But Codex Daemon Hunters still have some solid lists thanks to the allies rule.
Messanger
Nothing really I disagree with above, just wanted to comment on this:
ReplyDelete"Your long range shooting is also limited to only being able to take out 3-4 units on turn 1... not good at 2000 points when IG and SM can bring 10+ vehicles."
But, there are only maybe a few vehicles I NEED to keep from shooting: Manticores, Griffons, Hydra Batteries, Combat dreads... Lots of Razorbacks don't worry me (since its usually las/plas, and I don't care about you shooting boyz with them) and Chimeras, while more worrisome, are, overall less worrisome to me overall as getting close to IG is almost always a good thing as they don't have any counter attack units to worry about. Also, my lobbas can Pen chimeras since they have only AV10 on the sides. I just have to surge at them and I have the wounds and the cover to survive, as long as I take out the critical units like I mentioned above. Snikrot also helps by forcing my opponent to deploy to deal with him, which plays into my hand as well.
Armies I fear as Orks are mostly elite combat armies that are fast (non MSU BA and SW) or Mobbed up IG (mech IG isn't as strong against Orks IMO).