Junking the Rebuild

Below is Dash of Pepper's reply to Stelek's brain storming of a 'Best Of' Ork list...

Stelek has put together an interesting list over at his Yes the Truth Hurts. I thought it was a good list to further investigate. Since I probably know Orks better than any other codex I really wanted to weigh in.

I thought his list was interesting in that it tried a couple of things that aren't typical in any of my Orks lists.

1) It uses both Nob Bikers and Battlewagons

2) It relies primarily on grots as the basic troop choice.

3) It runs Kanz but isn't a Kan Wall.

I thought I'd run down these three items and offer feedback on his strategy.

Nobz:

For the first item, running both bikers and wagons I think is a sound choice. However I don't like his execution. My issue with mid-sized Nobz units thorough experience is that they either tend to struggle against the true power units or are overkill against the lesser units. In short they either don't do what they are designed to do or are over-costed and we'd rather spend points on something cheaper. With this in mind my current strategy with Nobz is to either run them as a minimum size to unlock wagons or as a maxed out death-star that can challenge anything. Maybe in close-combat but they are far from it when being shot at with high-strength guns. The sort of guns that players are bringing to kill multiple MCs like in 'Nid Armies. In this list Stelek runs two mid-range nobz, one in a wagon and the other on bikes. I think he's better off running one massive bike unit and have no apologies for it. I've changed the list with this consideration.

Grotz:

Stelek doesn't like Ork Boyz. His logic is that troops are fail if they don't have a dedicated transport. Since the trukk forces boyz into a unit size that makes them suck along with the fact that trukks are terribly flimsy he doesn't like trukk boyz either. Barring that option the last remaining choice is to put the boyz in a wagon. I happen to like this idea. He does not because he believes you're investing too many points into a unit combo that screams target priority. Compared to Land Raiders the Battlewagon is ALOT easier to kill thanks to it's deformed shape and side armour of 12. Sure having KFF is great, but in the world of 5th Edition it isn't hard for everybody else to also get cover saves on their vehicles. That's a 130 + point wagon with a standard 20 man boy unit with upgrades to the nob up to 160 we're looking at a 290 point troop. I don't agree with this but for purposes of this article I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt. The revised list shall have zero Ork boyz. Grot spam it is.

Kanz:

I tend to like Killa Kanz. But only in a list with a significant number. His list doesn't really offer them a consistent 4+ save and I consider that a problem. They double as fire support / anti tank and I don't hate the idea but my experience with them in that role is they tend to get dealt with when they are going to be a threat to the opponent and it's generally an easy task. All that said, the biggest problem with Kanz is they are sitting in the heavy slot. That means I have to use less wagons. I don't like that so I'm not going to run them. In their stead I'll try something different: I'll use a deff dread and declare it a troop with my KFF ability. At this point Dash is running a very different list to Stelek. He is only going with one of the three things Stelek is suggesting...

In addition to the above Stelek's list also features a deffkopta unit. I don't hate them at all but I find buggies to generally be a better value if they can ensure themselves cover saves for the majority of the game. This list enables that easily. You just said that it is hard to get a consistent cover save on the Kanz. I'm confuzzled. I prefer a cheaper buggy unit over the koptas with the understanding that I'm losing scout potential. Stelek seems to be the most vocal supporter of the Alpha Strike Kopta with most players preferring to take Warbuggies. Remember boys and girls that the Kopta comes with 2 wounds.

So considering Stelek's list I'm going to revise it as such.

Orks - 2000

I'll go along with most of what he's getting at here. We both agree fire support is key. I even ratchet it up further with a third loota unit and another squadron of buggies. Stelek likes Kanz for counter-assault purposes. I go with a shooty Deff Dread to save our precious heavy support slot and then use a whopping three wagons with deffrollas on the cheap carrying our grots. The wagons are relatively svelt at 170 points (130+40) instead of the standard 290 carrying a boyz unit. Mobile troops are crucial and this strategy allows for that. Our 4th grot unit will sit in reserve and only show up to camp out the local objective.

So that's the list. Good fire support. An incredibly powerful death-star unit. Wagon spam that must be respected carrying cheap troops to boot. A counter-assault unit to keep our opponent honest.

Do you like an Ork list without Boyz? Is this counterassault good enough? What about combining Nob Bikerz with Wagonz? Lot's of tactics to consider here. Maybe I'll try this list out in the near future!

- Kevin Nash in New Look Orks from 21st of August, 2010

And this is Stelek's response...

Well, either I'm not speaking the same language or I'm not teaching/sharing properly.

I don't understand this method of discussion--I say this is why I don't bring something, and you bring it anyway?   I swear..well, time to take the lolly. 

1)  One big Nob squad is a target.  With the re-introduction of missiles to counter mass mech and Tyranid MC's, Nobs don't do well--especially on foot, where mech lists will zap you with meltas, missiles, plasma (if they have it), and lascannon fire--along with bolters, heavy bolters, autocannons, etc.  In short, the kitchen sink.  One Thunder Hammer Terminator squad will generally smoke the whole thing, rendering it pointless.

2)  3 Battlewagons is a battlewagon army.  One Deff Dread doesn't scare anybody.  I just don't get it.  What makes you think the Kans won't be getting cover saves in my list?  The BW and buggies give cover to the Kans (plus the KFF).  It's not hard to be in range of the KFF when your BW is 27" long.  lol

3)  While admirable, I'm not scared of the list you've created--precisely because it has a Deathstar in it.  If I can beat down armies with multiple Nob based deathstars how is this an improvement?  Orks have to have multiple waves and frankly Ork Boyz just don't cut it, and Nobz can't do enough heavy lifting on their own.  Without the entire list as written giving support, the Orks just get defeated one batch at a time.

What's the difference between a Grot and an Ork?

The Grot knows he sucks. Preach Brother!

- Stelek in Junking the Rebuild from 21st of August, 2010